Manchester 24 hour Public Transport

[Mayneway]

 Manchester 24 hour Public Transport
Interesting story has popped up tonight on the MEN website discussing whether at least one form of transport running out of the city centre 24 hours a day. Good old Andy Burnham has had his say and has brought it up at a meeting with TFGM.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/...r-15722120

[buses7675 (Website Founder)]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Pubilc Transport
Subject altered only as it was so long it the forum software wouldn't let anyone reply!

[T42 PVM (Moderator)]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport
Thanks for sorting the feed out

As i was going to say last night Trams and Trains are going to cost a lot to run at night so where would the funding come from? Funded ha been cut back thanks to the current Gov

Buses are most likely the only real option and important routes like Manchester - Bolton should be considered.

[MTL0201]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport
Manchester already have a 24 hour bus service, 43 Piccadilly-Airport, 42/142 are almost 24 hour about an 90 minute gap between the last & first service.

(27/01/2019 12:48)T42 PVM Wrote:  Thanks for sorting the feed out

As i was going to say last night Trams and Trains are going to cost a lot to run at night so where would the funding come from? Funded ha been cut back thanks to the current Gov

Buses are most likely the only real option and important routes like Manchester - Bolton should be considered.

Exactly, where's the funding going to come from, when TGFM are cutting tendered services left right & centre.

Instead of fanciful 24 hour service ideas, might be a better idea spending the money on putting extra services on during the day, on none core routes, unless you live on core routes the bus services is appalling

[Barney]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport
I visit Manchester frequently and am extremely impressed by how vibrant the city's nightlife is but find it astonishing that most services finish around midnight.

The most cost-effective (cheapest) form of night transport is the use of buses and my understanding is that Andy Burnham is keen to reintroduce these service in some form at least at weekends and contrary to popular misconception not everyone who would use these night buses would be drunken louts.

I suspect that if these services charged standard fares and allowed the use of prepaid tickets - as happens in London - the increased passenger loadings would probably cover running costs.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport

(27/01/2019 17:24)Barney Wrote:  I visit Manchester frequently and am extremely impressed by how vibrant the city's nightlife is but find it astonishing that most services finish around midnight.

The most cost-effective (cheapest) form of night transport is the use of buses and my understanding is that Andy Burnham is keen to reintroduce these service in some form at least at weekends and contrary to popular misconception not everyone who would use these night buses would be drunken louts.

I suspect that if these services charged standard fares and allowed the use of prepaid tickets - as happens in London - the increased passenger loadings would probably cover running costs.

I actually completely agree with you. Up until a few years ago I was out regularly in Manchester on a weekend and it's disappointing that there is a distinct lack of public transport.
Personally given the upheaval and the amount of money spent extending the Metrolink system over the last few years I think at the very least Trams should run later on a Friday/Saturday night.

[Brickmill]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport

(27/01/2019 17:52)Mayneway Wrote:  I actually completely agree with you. Up until a few years ago I was out regularly in Manchester on a weekend and it's disappointing that there is a distinct lack of public transport.
Personally given the upheaval and the amount of money spent extending the Metrolink system over the last few years I think at the very least Trams should run later on a Friday/Saturday night.

This is where the modal choice gets complicated.

Because of the costings, I would think it is much easier to extend the Operating hours of Metrolink, because Rail has a massive Capital cost, and so employing extra drivers is a drop in the ocean. Buses, OTOH are very labour/fuel intensive, so proportionally it would be much more expensive to extend a large number of routes even for a few hours a night. Plus, of course, each journey needs legally t make an Operating profit if they are not subsidised. Its worth remembering that a lot of subsidised Night buses - especially in Wigan and Bolton - were put on to appease GMP, but of course the money came from the Transport budget, not the Police budget!

The other side of the equation is the more obvious one that, as with any time of day, improving any form of Rail is only going to benefit a tiny proportion of tax-paying travellers, and ironically its likely to be the same catchment areas that haven't sustained Night buses in the past. eg 82 & 216.

Bearing in mind the relatively comprehensive NightBus network in the 1990s, it sounds like the usual case - of let's ruin something, then wait a quarter of a century to admit it was the wrong thing to do.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport
It is surprising the lack of night buses. When you look at the amount of very high frequency routes in the city. I think part of it is that First don't really want nights commercially. Stagecoach are the only ones who will try nights but then Stagecoach will not go into First areas to do night buses. Plus, the routes in South Manchester which run, do so close to the depots so not a lot of dead milage.

I do think that someone should try the 36, 37 or 38 night buses Combined, these routes run 18 buses per hour between Walkden and Manchester. There must be something in there which is viable.
Rochdale Road between Middleton and Manchester has 15 buses per hour in the day as well. That must be a tiny bit viable. First should really run the 17 straight through. There is only a 4h gap where it doesn't operate. 1 bus, hourly (20 min end to end). For the sake of 4h pay, surely you can make that much in revenue.

Metrolink should run all night. It practically does anyway on the Airport Line. It would take very little effort to make the Airport line 24h. It would mess up maintenance and cleaning schedules but I mean available trams and where they would be at the times they are needed. I think the biggest risk with trams is the amount of people who walk oblivious to their surroundings. Buses can swerve. Trams cant...

[Brickmill]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport

(28/01/2019 14:34)iMarkeh Wrote:  I do think that someone should try the 36, 37 or 38 night buses Combined, these routes run 18 buses per hour between Walkden and Manchester. There must be something in there which is viable.
Rochdale Road between Middleton and Manchester has 15 buses per hour in the day as well. That must be a tiny bit viable. First should really run the 17 straight through. There is only a 4h gap where it doesn't operate. 1 bus, hourly (20 min end to end). For the sake of 4h pay, surely you can make that much in revenue.

On top of the variable costs quoted, it would be very expensive to keep a large depot like Queens Road open overnight with just a handful of buses running. The overheads would include extra lighting and depot staff as well as a few drivers. Further, apart from All Night markets being a different clientele, you have picked two corridors that there is evidence to suggest are overbussed. Although historically highly profitable, I've heard that Bus Reform studies of peak loadings on Rochdale Road corridor revealed surprisingly low numbers. As for the 36/37/38, that proves that Stagecoach DO cross the county to compete with First, and anecdotal evidence suggests that it is probably THE most overbussed corridor in the county, despite the 38 having the lowest (on bus) fares in the county. Yes, cheaper than MagicBus with a tiny fraction of the genuine demand.

[Solo40336]

RE: Manchester 24 hour Public Transport

(29/01/2019 15:55)Brickmill Wrote:  On top of the variable costs quoted, it would be very expensive to keep a large depot like Queens Road open overnight with just a handful of buses running. The overheads would include extra lighting and depot staff as well as a few drivers. Further, apart from All Night markets being a different clientele, you have picked two corridors that there is evidence to suggest are overbussed. Although historically highly profitable, I've heard that Bus Reform studies of peak loadings on Rochdale Road corridor revealed surprisingly low numbers. As for the 36/37/38, that proves that Stagecoach DO cross the county to compete with First, and anecdotal evidence suggests that it is probably THE most overbussed corridor in the county, despite the 38 having the lowest (on bus) fares in the county. Yes, cheaper than MagicBus with a tiny fraction of the genuine demand.

Most Depots in Manchester are open 24 hours a day anyway, with Staff buses only getting a short gap between taking the last driver home and picking the first one up. Even when night buses were running more regularly, Engineering aren't usually in, and a case of if it breaks down, get it recovered is enforced. There is normally a router in overnight arranging the next days allocations and previous day's defect cards and in the past the vehicles on the night buses are usually in for scheduledaintananve the next day that allows for the fuelling/cleaning. The only added cost is diesel and the drivers wages. I used to use the 17 night bus regularly, a decker was never full but there was rarely more than a few seats spare, with a flat rate of £3 I can't see how it was loosing money, but then again First have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to cutting services then wondering why it doesn't make money....