Cheshire East Local transport engagement

[iMarkeh]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(25/11/2020 14:58)knutstransport Wrote:  It's important to consider why they want a bus service. If it's shopping then a bus to any town with a supermarket is adequate e.g. people living in High Legh can't complain they need a bus to Altrincham for shopping if they have a bus to Warrington. If it's medical reasons then it's less straight forward. For instance, NHS outpatient services are offered at Knutsford Community Hospital and each of the specialists are generally only there for one half day per week so a bus on Wednesday only is no good if you need to see the gastro specialist, as he's only there on a Tuesday. I'm also aware at Wilmslow Health Centre some of the NHS outpatient services are offered at evening surgeries, great for the people who work normal office hours but not-so-good for those working without cars if the last bus leaves too early.

No bus can serve everyones needs though and it goes back to the point that buses can't run for one or two people. They need to run where it makes financial sense to run them. Just because it's a tender, doesn't mean it's acceptable to be very lightly used.

(25/11/2020 14:58)knutstransport Wrote:  I was talking about Knutsford and Wilmslow, not little villages like Styal, Ashley & Mobberley. For an evening service it could be more viable to serve Knutsford station where you can get 50+ alighting a single service from Manchester, than Wilmslow where there's numerous trains and 80 people could be spread across 5 services each arriving at different times. (Not to mention Knutsford station bus stop is on the A road between Knutsford and Macclesfield, which the B road towards Wilmslow and the over ward part of Knutsford branches off so no diversion is required to serve the station.)

88 evenings could work but I got the impression they want to aim to meet trains at most of the stations.

(25/11/2020 14:58)knutstransport Wrote:  Yes but as D&G have most of the Cheshire East contracts it's how many of the subsided bus services in Cheshire East are currently run, so very relevant for the purpose of this survey. Reworking the timetables could make the difference between a token service to a village being possible with an ordinary bus and saying people in said village need to pre-book for Flexilink, subject to availability.

I disagree partly there. Just because that's how D&G run, they are now under new ownership and if/when Centrebus get a grip of D&G, things might change. It's also worth noting that other companies do run some CEC contracts and I think that there could be potential for some other services to be ran by other companies. What suits D&G doesn't suit everyone else and that is why alternative bids and negotiations happen. One of the issues CEC has is that a lot of the services have a high PVR or they are all linked with other services so D&G win by default due to the operations (dead millage or PVR). If CEC changes how it does things with the upcoming review, it might end up as lots of lower PVR services being put out as route specific tenders and not bigger combined ones.

It's a bit of wait and see as to how CEC will end up doing things. Perhaps this consultation is just there to keep people in jobs and to try and prove to residents that they are listening. Nothing may come of it but also huge changes could come about.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(25/11/2020 21:53)iMarkeh Wrote:  No bus can serve everyones needs though and it goes back to the point that buses can't run for one or two people. They need to run where it makes financial sense to run them. Just because it's a tender, doesn't mean it's acceptable to be very lightly used.

I did not say anything about running a bus for 1 or 2 people. I said it's important to consider why people are making the journey. Only then can you decide what the best approach is. Deciding the solution is a token bus service on Wednesday (for operational convenience) when people need to travel on Tuesdays and Thursdays is exactly how you end up with buses running around with 1 or 2 people on board!

I think what you're forgetting is in the case of people from rural settlements accessing outpatient services if they don't have a car and can't get a lift, the taxpayers will fund a solution in one form or another. It might be a normal bus, it might be an on demand bus like Flexilink or it might be NHS funded patient transport. The latter is the most expensive option and ideally should only be reserved for those whose medical condition prevents them from using a normal bus.

Quote:88 evenings could work but I got the impression they want to aim to meet trains at most of the stations.

I'm not following. I was talking about how it would be easier to meet demand at Knutsford station in the evenings. Most people are travelling away from Greater Manchester, there's one train an hour arriving at 25 past the hour, so a bus leaving the bus station at half past the hour and heading towards Shaw Heath would allow a connection to be made with the train, travel towards the most densely populated part of the town and also the part of the town where people are least likely to own cars. I was saying it would be more challenging at Wilmslow where there's a lot more trains and fewer people per train but didn't say or imply the solution is an 88 evening service connecting with trains at both Knutsford and Wilmslow. In another part of my post I did mention evening outpatient services at Wilmslow Health Centre but if most of the people who need that service are from Wilmslow and Handforth then an 88 service to Knutsford in the evening is not necessarily the solution to that. Of course there is the option of a different route running in the evenings like Handforth to Knutsford, instead of Altrincham to Knutsford if that would better suit demand.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(26/11/2020 10:27)knutstransport Wrote:  I'm not following. I was talking about how it would be easier to meet demand at Knutsford station in the evenings. Most people are travelling away from Greater Manchester, there's one train an hour arriving at 25 past the hour, so a bus leaving the bus station at half past the hour and heading towards Shaw Heath would allow a connection to be made with the train, travel towards the most densely populated part of the town and also the part of the town where people are least likely to own cars. I was saying it would be more challenging at Wilmslow where there's a lot more trains and fewer people per train but didn't say or imply the solution is an 88 evening service connecting with trains at both Knutsford and Wilmslow. In another part of my post I did mention evening outpatient services at Wilmslow Health Centre but if most of the people who need that service are from Wilmslow and Handforth then an 88 service to Knutsford in the evening is not necessarily the solution to that. Of course there is the option of a different route running in the evenings like Handforth to Knutsford, instead of Altrincham to Knutsford if that would better suit demand.

I'm saying that the 88s in the evening might work for linking linking Knutsford and Wilmslow stations to the populated areas in each town. Evening outpatient services generally don't generate much usage anywhere regardless of the bus service on offer. Linking to the train times at Wilmslow is harder but the chance of getting passengers is quite high if the service level is decent.

From the survey, I got the impression that the overall aim (the aim which I am against) is trying to link buses to the times of trains in even the smallest of stations (Goostrey and Mobberly stations to the respective village centres).

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(26/11/2020 11:51)iMarkeh Wrote:  From the survey, I got the impression that the overall aim (the aim which I am against) is trying to link buses to the times of trains in even the smallest of stations (Goostrey and Mobberly stations to the respective village centres).

At Mobberley you can't time the buses to link with the trains as the buses don't go anywhere near the station, so you'd need to introduce a new bus route before you can do that e.g. something like the scholars 188 service but going right down to the station.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(26/11/2020 11:57)knutstransport Wrote:  At Mobberley you can't time the buses to link with the trains as the buses don't go anywhere near the station, so you'd need to introduce a new bus route before you can do that e.g. something like the scholars 188 service but going right down to the station.

That was the impression I got, more buses to the train stations and link them with bus times.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(26/11/2020 15:16)iMarkeh Wrote:  That was the impression I got, more buses to the train stations and link them with bus times.

In the case of Mobberley anyone who can't access existing public transport is best off using something like Flexilink. The only really useful bus service you could provide that way would be one to the airport but then sending the Knutsford-Wilmslow bus to the airport would attract more passengers than a back roads airport bus.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(26/11/2020 11:51)iMarkeh Wrote:  From the survey, I got the impression that the overall aim (the aim which I am against) is trying to link buses to the times of trains in even the smallest of stations (Goostrey and Mobberly stations to the respective village centres).

I went through the proposals in detail yesterday and I can't see any wording in there which gives that impression. For Mobberley station they only talk about getting a CIS installed and for Goostrey they talk about looking at a better walking route from the station to Jodrell Bank. They also talk about a walking and cycling route from Knutsford, which could end up being a walking route from Knutsford station to Parkgate Industrial Estate to Mobberley. While they talk about a bus running to Jodrell Bank they do not say anything about it serving Goostrey station or the village of Goostrey, it's mentioned on the Knutsford page but there is no guarantee that if a bus is introduced that it would even form a direct connection between Knutsford and Jodrell Bank. They talk about better bus/rail connections generally and mention that as a specific proposal for Knutsford station.

[K10K11]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(01/12/2020 10:00)knutstransport Wrote:  I went through the proposals in detail yesterday and I can't see any wording in there which gives that impression. For Mobberley station they only talk about getting a CIS installed and for Goostrey they talk about looking at a better walking route from the station to Jodrell Bank. They also talk about a walking and cycling route from Knutsford, which could end up being a walking route from Knutsford station to Parkgate Industrial Estate to Mobberley. While they talk about a bus running to Jodrell Bank they do not say anything about it serving Goostrey station or the village of Goostrey, it's mentioned on the Knutsford page but there is no guarantee that if a bus is introduced that it would even form a direct connection between Knutsford and Jodrell Bank. They talk about better bus/rail connections generally and mention that as a specific proposal for Knutsford station.

You can put a blue sign up and turn any road into a cycling route. I'm intrigued by the idea of walking from Goostrey to Jodrell Bank though. I can't imagine too many people try that. The Jodrell Bank website says the easiest way for anyone using train is to go to Macclesfield and get a taxi from there.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(01/12/2020 14:28)K10K11 Wrote:  You can put a blue sign up and turn any road into a cycling route.

Or worse just put a shared footway/cycle route sign on a section of pavement but don't reserve one side for pedestrians like they do in many European countries. Knutsford Business Park is an example of how to do a cycle route badly. The traffic lights only change when they detect a car or vehicle leaving the business park, so the 'shared space' is just a way of allowing cyclists to leave the business park legally and even then it only works in the cyclist is leaving in the direction of Knutsford.

Quote:I'm intrigued by the idea of walking from Goostrey to Jodrell Bank though. I can't imagine too many people try that.

The text says about there not being a good walking route and the proposal is for a better, more direct route. If you ask Google for walking directions it directs you to the staff & deliveries entrance. I'm guessing the idea is something like what exists for Burscough Bridge to Martin Mere.

[K10K11]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(01/12/2020 14:43)knutstransport Wrote:  Or worse just put a shared footway/cycle route sign on a section of pavement but don't reserve one side for pedestrians like they do in many European countries. Knutsford Business Park is an example of how to do a cycle route badly. The traffic lights only change when they detect a car or vehicle leaving the business park, so the 'shared space' is just a way of allowing cyclists to leave the business park legally and even then it only works in the cyclist is leaving in the direction of Knutsford.


The text says about there not being a good walking route and the proposal is for a better, more direct route. If you ask Google for walking directions it directs you to the staff & deliveries entrance. I'm guessing the idea is something like what exists for Burscough Bridge to Martin Mere.

Councils do like to promote cycling priorities which have have very little practical use. Slight side note, but as someone that has up til recently cycled to work early mornings, traffic lights that don't change for cyclists are a real bug bear.

Having looked at the routes between Goostrey and Jodrell Bank on Google Maps Street View, the quickest one goes partly across fields and could be enhanced, but as you say, it takes you to the wrong entrance. If you stay on the roads as advised by the Jodrell Bank website, you're following some very narrow country roads with no footpaths, and without adding footpaths is difficult to see how they could be improved.