Cheshire East Local transport engagement

[knutstransport]

Cheshire East Local transport engagement
Consultation is currently ongoing on a number of proposals. The survey closes on 31 January 2021.

https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/council_...-2020.aspx

Bus proposals include:
- Improve bus connectivity to Manchester Airport, Jodrell Bank, Tatton Park and Alderley Park.
- Assess the feasibility of providing a bus service from High Legh to Altrincham encompassing neighbouring Agden Brow and Little Bollington.
- Improved bus connections from Knutsford to Altrincham, Chelford, Macclesfield and Warrington.
- Working to restore bus services in Macclesfield which they say was one of the best connected places in the borough. In particular improved services to the Tytherington Business Park, Hurdsfield Industrial Estate and the hospital.
- Offering Flexilink services in rural parts of Macclesfield in the evenings and expanding Flexilink in Crewe.
- Improved connections between trains and buses including better service from Crewe station to Crewe town centre.
- Look at buses serving Grand Junction Retail Park.
- Improve bus connectivity for Middlewich services to allow journeys to Warrington, Knutsford and the Potteries. (Note they don't actually say they are proposing direct services, just ensuring it's possible to reach those places using public transport.)
- Connect Poynton with Disley and Woodley.
- Working with TfGM on Bus Rapid Transit schemes which could benefit Handforth and Poynton.

[K10K11]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement
Love the line about Crewe Bus Station -

Quote:As part of the Royal Arcade development, provide a new bus station and short-term improvements to the existing bus station facility before and during while the new station is delivered.

Short term improvements to make sure the roof doesn't fall down!!! I do wonder how long the current bus station will remain in situ given the demolition of the shop rows is starting.

Bus access to the Grand Junction retail park is an interesting one. Given how it's a big focus of retail in Crewe now with the issues surrounding the town centre, the retail park is only served by one bus, and that only goes in one direction so anyone looking to get a bus back to town has to go on a 15 minute journey round a couple of estates. Congestion is a big problem, and I'm not sure what they can do about that.

There's some interesting stuff in there even if some of it is basically restablishing links that previously existed, but I'm intrigued as to where the money's coming from to pay for it all.

[mikestone]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement
D&G have pethaps already established that neither the station or retail park have much untapped potential from the station having cut back the Nantwich shorts to the bus station.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(24/11/2020 19:20)K10K11 Wrote:  There's some interesting stuff in there even if some of it is basically restablishing links that previously existed, but I'm intrigued as to where the money's coming from to pay for it all.

I'm guessing the idea is it's a long term wishlist and the survey is partly to identify which proposals to go ahead with and which should have priority.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(24/11/2020 19:55)mikestone Wrote:  D&G have pethaps already established that neither the station or retail park have much untapped potential from the station having cut back the Nantwich shorts to the bus station.

A D&G manager said they never look at rail timetables when preparing bus timetables as in his view 'very few people' transfer between buses and trains and train timetables are 'constantly changing.' (Nevermind they only normally changed twice a year and for many routes there are noticeable changes from one timetable change to the next.)

[K10K11]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(24/11/2020 19:55)mikestone Wrote:  D&G have pethaps already established that neither the station or retail park have much untapped potential from the station having cut back the Nantwich shorts to the bus station.

There's plenty of buses going past or near the rail station, so I don't think there's any problem there. As for the Retail Park, if there were regular frequent services passing in both directions it might build up some custom, but the odd bus every hour isn't going to encourage many people to wait around.

The shorts to the station D&G were running probably showed that the number of buses to the station running down Edleston Road and Nantwich Road more than meets demand for the railway station. Going via Macon Way doesn't really generate much custom.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(24/11/2020 19:20)K10K11 Wrote:  Love the line about Crewe Bus Station -


Short term improvements to make sure the roof doesn't fall down!!! I do wonder how long the current bus station will remain in situ given the demolition of the shop rows is starting.

Bus access to the Grand Junction retail park is an interesting one. Given how it's a big focus of retail in Crewe now with the issues surrounding the town centre, the retail park is only served by one bus, and that only goes in one direction so anyone looking to get a bus back to town has to go on a 15 minute journey round a couple of estates. Congestion is a big problem, and I'm not sure what they can do about that.

There's some interesting stuff in there even if some of it is basically restablishing links that previously existed, but I'm intrigued as to where the money's coming from to pay for it all.

(25/11/2020 09:32)knutstransport Wrote:  A D&G manager said they never look at rail timetables when preparing bus timetables as in his view 'very few people' transfer between buses and trains and train timetables are 'constantly changing.' (Nevermind they only normally changed twice a year and for many routes there are noticeable changes from one timetable change to the next.)

And he would be right for most of the smaller stations. Interchange stations with quite a few services, people will be up for multi modal but Congleton, Knutsford etc, people don't use the bus and change between modes because the trains are irregular and so if a bus is a few minutes late, you risk missing your train.

Integration between modes only works at bigger train stations because of the passenger flows. There is a much higher chance of the bus being useful to passengers (Ie if 5% of passengers use the bus, the laws of scale show that Wilmslow will have a lot more passengers interchanging onto the bus than Handforth for example). There are also more services so if something goes wrong on the bus leg of the journey, you can catch another train and it not affect your journey as much. Wilmslow and Crewe are the key stations which need more integration.

When planning a commute, if the train is a few mins late, that's ok as at least you are close to work. IF your bus is late to the train station though and you miss the train, you are stuck miles away from work and you either are late or have to have a day off. It's a lot of money to lose. It's hard for bus operators to link up these times as well for dropping off since the bus can't be late but it also can't be too early as passengers don't like sitting around. I think in general, it's more hassle than it's worth linking up buses to trains except where there is a significant commuter flow from the station to a nearby workplace (Knutsford to Radbroke).

Quite often, people calling for these sorts of integration are people on free passes. They complain because it makes it harder to get to places and because by and large, they become 'entitled' and believe they deserve a bus to run where and when they want it and they don't want to change buses.
For councils, they feel it makes buses look more attractive but they don't understand the cost or operational implications which come with it. For example, buses sat around waiting for trains means a less frequent service so people who want to travel locally or connect between buses are disadvantaged as the buses are less frequent so those very few which do connect between modes, can do so.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(25/11/2020 12:44)iMarkeh Wrote:  Quite often, people calling for these sorts of integration are people on free passes. They complain because it makes it harder to get to places and because by and large, they become 'entitled' and believe they deserve a bus to run where and when they want it and they don't want to change buses.

There are pensioners in Holmes Chapel who bemoan the lack of a bus to Knutsford, which there hasn't been since Tomlinson Travel stopped running the 47 Holmes Chapel to Warrington a number of years back. At the time it was withdrawn the council said it was possible to get between Holmes Chapel and Knutsford with one change at Chelford (at that time the 27 bus was hourly) and if you didn't want to risk a missed connection in Chelford you could do the longer journey via Wilmslow (at the time the 88 bus was half-hourly.) Obviously that's a journey harder to make by public transport now, so it may put people off making it unless they absolutely have to make it but then if they do have to make it then they have to use a combination of bus+train or make a very long, indirect and expensive train journey.

Quote:if 5% of passengers use the bus, the laws of scale show that Wilmslow will have a lot more passengers interchanging onto the bus than Handforth for example

I doubt it's that simple.

For instance, Mobberley village is a long walk from Mobberley station and the two points aren't connected, so that may mean some people from Mobberley travel to Wilmslow for the train. However, Mobberley is also an affluent village so those passengers may prefer to go by car or taxi, opposed to the bus. I doubt someone from Chelford would get a bus to Macclesfield to get a train to Manchester because Chelford station isn't a long walk from the village. For other villages there is no station, not even a long walk away.

Wilmslow and Macclesfield both have Intercity trains, maybe that results in more bus journeys to those stations or maybe it results in less, as perhaps long distance passengers are more likely to be business travellers who can put a taxi or car parking on expenses unless there's a bus every 5 minutes.

Also, Wilmslow didn't have a local bus service in the evenings even before the bus cuts, while Knutsford did. Perhaps if people feel less comfortable walking home from the station late at night they are more likely to use a bus.

You could also compare level of rail usage at Knutsford, Poynton and Buxton and see that for similar sized towns the level of rail usage can be vastly different.

Quote:For councils, they feel it makes buses look more attractive but they don't understand the cost or operational implications which come with it. For example, buses sat around waiting for trains means a less frequent service so people who want to travel locally or connect between buses are disadvantaged as the buses are less frequent so those very few which do connect between modes, can do so.

Buses sitting around waiting - see any timetable for a D&G Bus service for an example of that. D&G will timetable a bus to take 15 minutes to get from A to B if it takes 8-12, depending on traffic conditions, for longer routes that can mean a bus taking 65 minutes for a journey possible in 55. That means either there's long layovers, inter-working (which can mean an accident on one route can affect punctuality on multiple routes) or a reduced frequency e.g. a service every 90 minutes instead of one every 60.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(25/11/2020 13:17)knutstransport Wrote:  There are pensioners in Holmes Chapel who bemoan the lack of a bus to Knutsford, which there hasn't been since Tomlinson Travel stopped running the 47 Holmes Chapel to Warrington a number of years back. At the time it was withdrawn the council said it was possible to get between Holmes Chapel and Knutsford with one change at Chelford (at that time the 27 bus was hourly) and if you didn't want to risk a missed connection in Chelford you could do the longer journey via Wilmslow (at the time the 88 bus was half-hourly.) Obviously that's a journey harder to make by public transport now, so it may put people off making it unless they absolutely have to make it but then if they do have to make it then they have to use a combination of bus+train or make a very long, indirect and expensive train journey.

It's a case of people all wanting buses to every town up and down the country and they aren't used so they get cut and the free loaders than winge 'social isolation'. What. 1 day per month extra you will be isolated because that is all you used to get that bus anyway.

(25/11/2020 13:17)knutstransport Wrote:  I doubt it's that simple.

For instance, Mobberley village is a long walk from Mobberley station and the two points aren't connected, so that may mean some people from Mobberley travel to Wilmslow for the train. However, Mobberley is also an affluent village so those passengers may prefer to go by car or taxi, opposed to the bus. I doubt someone from Chelford would get a bus to Macclesfield to get a train to Manchester because Chelford station isn't a long walk from the village. For other villages there is no station, not even a long walk away.

It's not that simple but speaking generally, integration overall isn't worth much and that includes major interchange stations. You only have to look around the UK at where buses integrate to trains and you will see that even in areas like Reading with very high bus usage and very high train usage, the amount of people connecting between modes, is low.

(25/11/2020 13:17)knutstransport Wrote:  Wilmslow and Macclesfield both have Intercity trains, maybe that results in more bus journeys to those stations or maybe it results in less, as perhaps long distance passengers are more likely to be business travellers who can put a taxi or car parking on expenses unless there's a bus every 5 minutes.

Also, Wilmslow didn't have a local bus service in the evenings even before the bus cuts, while Knutsford did. Perhaps if people feel less comfortable walking home from the station late at night they are more likely to use a bus.

You could also compare level of rail usage at Knutsford, Poynton and Buxton and see that for similar sized towns the level of rail usage can be vastly different.

People don't like walking home from the station late at night so that could be some scope for improvement but generally speaking, you need to look at the potential usage. Very few people use the trains from some of the rural stations at the best of times, let along nights where trains can often not have anyone board/alight at the rural stations. You are prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on buses to integrate with trains despite the passenger numbers per train being extremely low in most cases. If you want to fund that out of your pocket, go for it but why should everyone else prop up a bus network because old doris has winged that she can't use the bus (for free) to get to the train station once per month. Buses run where and when a decent amount of people want to travel. They aren't there for one or two people to use a couple of times per month. IF you want a door to door mode of transport, that's called a Taxi. It's old people winging for buses as they can use them for free vs a taxi which costs them.

(25/11/2020 13:17)knutstransport Wrote:  Buses sitting around waiting - see any timetable for a D&G Bus service for an example of that. D&G will timetable a bus to take 15 minutes to get from A to B if it takes 8-12, depending on traffic conditions, for longer routes that can mean a bus taking 65 minutes for a journey possible in 55. That means either there's long layovers, inter-working (which can mean an accident on one route can affect punctuality on multiple routes) or a reduced frequency e.g. a service every 90 minutes instead of one every 60.

That's a company specific decision about how they want to run their network. That's not a bus industry standard way of working.

[knutstransport]

RE: Cheshire East Local transport engagement

(25/11/2020 14:36)iMarkeh Wrote:  It's a case of people all wanting buses to every town up and down the country and they aren't used so they get cut and the free loaders than winge 'social isolation'. What. 1 day per month extra you will be isolated because that is all you used to get that bus anyway.

It's important to consider why they want a bus service. If it's shopping then a bus to any town with a supermarket is adequate e.g. people living in High Legh can't complain they need a bus to Altrincham for shopping if they have a bus to Warrington. If it's medical reasons then it's less straight forward. For instance, NHS outpatient services are offered at Knutsford Community Hospital and each of the specialists are generally only there for one half day per week so a bus on Wednesday only is no good if you need to see the gastro specialist, as he's only there on a Tuesday. I'm also aware at Wilmslow Health Centre some of the NHS outpatient services are offered at evening surgeries, great for the people who work normal office hours but not-so-good for those working without cars if the last bus leaves too early.

Quote:People don't like walking home from the station late at night so that could be some scope for improvement but generally speaking, you need to look at the potential usage. Very few people use the trains from some of the rural stations at the best of times, let along nights where trains can often not have anyone board/alight at the rural stations.

I was talking about Knutsford and Wilmslow, not little villages like Styal, Ashley & Mobberley. For an evening service it could be more viable to serve Knutsford station where you can get 50+ alighting a single service from Manchester, than Wilmslow where there's numerous trains and 80 people could be spread across 5 services each arriving at different times. (Not to mention Knutsford station bus stop is on the A road between Knutsford and Macclesfield, which the B road towards Wilmslow and the over ward part of Knutsford branches off so no diversion is required to serve the station.)

Quote:That's a company specific decision about how they want to run their network. That's not a bus industry standard way of working.

Yes but as D&G have most of the Cheshire East contracts it's how many of the subsided bus services in Cheshire East are currently run, so very relevant for the purpose of this survey. Reworking the timetables could make the difference between a token service to a village being possible with an ordinary bus and saying people in said village need to pre-book for Flexilink, subject to availability.