Northern (Arriva Rail North)

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
I'm sure both train and bus operators would like to be given the 'investment' of vehicles purchased using tax payer's money which Metrolink gets.

I'm also not sure bus operators would like to pay a fee in pence per mile proportional to the weight of their bus for using the roads.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(14/08/2017 21:01)Dentonian Wrote:  Train Operators do, as they are the sole users of Rail lines.

On some lines there are regular freight services but passenger services only occasionally use the line.

Quote:As for the proportional to weight argument, that is ridiculous! tw?

Network Rail get money from train operators based on weight per axle. Northern pay around 10p per mile for using a Pacer on the network. EMT pay about 24p per mile for using a pair of 158s on the network. It's slightly more complicated with electric trains as the charge for electricity usage is combined with the cost of using the track. A freight operator can pay over 60p per mile just for the locomotive. It does have some logic to it - a lightweight aluminium train like a 172 puts a lot less wear on the track than a big heavy steel Voyager.

It wasn't a serious suggestion that bus operators should pay road access charges, more to point out the flaw in your logic of directly comparing bus and train subsides.

Also does operating a commercial bus service make the operator ineligible for the Bus Service Operator’s Grant? If not that's another point to consider.

Quote:How about proportional to number of occupants per metre?

Well if you want big buses replaced by smaller buses with more standing room that might be a good way of getting that.

[Sprinterdriver]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(13/08/2017 14:06)Dentonian Wrote:  1. I'm not going that far by any means - but its certainly more equitable than the reverse scenario!

2. Doubtless you are taking from the viewpoint of a car owner,

3. All public transport connections are lousy and unpredictable, and equally people's travel needs vary so they are never going to work for everyone.

4. Not sure how the Rail Industry pays more in than the £5.6bn? annual subsidy it receives -

I'm hoping that this won't turn into a lengthy discussion, I simply don't have time for it or your anti rail diatribe.

But to answer your points:

1: It was announced today that rail users will see their fares rise by 3.5% in January, that should be across the board nationally, some ticket types are regulated so may see a smaller rise. Mind you with Metrolink GM succeed in making rail slower and more expensive!

2: Yes I am a car owner. Through necessity rather than luxury. I need to get to work either before bus or rail services start when on earlies and home after they finish when on lates. The TOC's don't run staff trains! This of course gives me a decision to make when public transport is available, although my local bus service is generally very good at getting to Liverpool City Centre, cross city link are poorer, for instance my nearest railway station is 1.5 miles away. It Doesn't have a car park, it's quicker to walk as there isn't a direct bus service, so I use it rarely. If I'm heading south on the train I usually go to Liverpool South Parkway, a 20 minute drive or at least a 45 minute bus journey, so guess what I do?

3: Point proven. Faster and cheaper to drive to a station, see above.

4: Please read what I wrote. I said the train operators pay more in premiums than they receive in subsidy, that is correct, something to the tune of £800 million. Network Rail receives a massive payment for the upkeep of the infrastructure, using your own logic that is investment rather than subsidy. While it is a massive figure, it doesn't make up for decades of under investment. We still have main lines in this country that are signalled using methods and equipment from the Victorian age. Trains do run on red diesel, they are not road vehicles, just like things like ships and farm machinery. While the amount of diesel consumed was set to reduce with increasing electrification, the Government have just decided otherwise by cancelling and scaling back various schemes. It looks to me like you are saying that everyone except the bus industry are to blame for the problems on the buses! As for rail's powerful political supporters, they are nothing compared to the road lobby I'm afraid!

SD.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Dentonian - You're trying to explain BSOG when you don't appear to understand how rail subsidies work. The old Northern franchise was constantly refunding subsidies due to fare revenue being higher than expected. So it's very similar to the operator getting £1 in 2014 and then giving 63p back in 2015!

If you want to argue subsided trains are competing with commercial buses then you really need to obtain more detailed figures about how much individual train services cost to operate. Even if a specific rail route makes a small loss it might be comparable to a bus route where just the evening and Sunday services are subsided.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Interestingly according to DfT figures the overall bus subsidy for Metropolitan areas (including concessionary travel reimbursement and BSOG) is 50.7p per passenger mile. In non-Metropolitan areas it's 66.5p per passenger mile and in London it's 35.1p per passenger mile. For Rail the overall subsidy (including Network Rail payments) for England & Wales is just 5.7p per passenger mile. Even the old Northern franchise's high subsidy of 35.3p per passenger mile is much lower than the overall bus subsidy! Old Northern received a PTE subsidy of 8.8p per passenger mile for journeys within PTE areas (included in the overall 35.3p figure) which to the delight of Dentonian is being withdrawn with PTE fares being brought in line with non-PTE fares.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
If you think the DfT figures for bus subsides are nonsense than you do the same with the DfT subsides for rail subsides. Neither give the full picture and can be very misleading if quoted without lots of different caveats.

It's also not a question of whether PTE subsides for rail services will be scrapped, it's a case of they will be completely phased out. Very soon the total TfGM subsidy for all rail routes will be 0p. TfGM also hope to take control of stations in Greater Manchester - if they succeed in that train operators will even be paying them to use their stations!

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(16/08/2017 20:57)Dentonian Wrote:  And my question wasn't about PTE subsidies for rail. It was about fare discrepencies. Also you'll note I was asking for figures to work out the "full picture".

Unlike bus fares the price of rail tickets are available online on various websites. You specifically asked for a 4 mile journey but the inconsistencies between PTE area fares and non-PTE areas are greater for longer journeys

For example in Cheshire:
Knutsford to Northwich (5 miles) £5.50 off-peak return
Knutsford to Delamere (13.5 miles) £8.70 off-peak return
Knutsford to Chester (23.5 miles) £10.70 off-peak return

While in Greater Manchester:
Manchester to Stockport (5 miles) £5.00 off-peak return (10% cheaper)
Levenshulme to Manchester Airport (13.5 miles) £5.90 off-peak return (47% cheaper)
Wigan to Mills Hill (23.5 miles) £5.90 off-peak return (81% cheaper)

The short journeys will probably be consistent after another couple of fare rises, while the inconsistencies in longer journeys will take much longer to iron out. Of course, there's always exceptions so if you choose different journeys the results will be different. I've also used distance by rail which will be longer than the distance by road in some cases and shorter in other cases e.g. for Levenshulme to Manchester Airport the distance includes going in to Piccadilly and back out again.

[Sprinterdriver]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(16/08/2017 19:58)Dentonian Wrote:  I'll try to be equally as brief:
1. Fully aware that Rail passengers have been given 20 weeks notice of an average 3.5% fare increase - as I am of its condemnation by the Unions, Media and most politicians. GM Bus users had a 7.5% increase with much less than 2 weeks notice back in April. A bit of an outcry about First's rises in the MEN (but not about Stagecoach's!), not a dicky bird from local BBC/Granada or lobbyists or Unite.

2. 1.5 miles is exactly the average for home to rail head, so my point is made.

4. Do you mean they pay £800 million total or £800m more than the estimated £5.6 billion subsidy. More importantly, are you saying that is going back to the Treasury, or to Network Rail?
I have never said that the bus industry aren't to blame, themselves. The only people who are blameless for the problems in he bus "industry" are the law abiding, loyal (usually car-less) adult bus passengers, who have seen fares increase 10 fold (singles in GM) in 31 years (RPI has gone up c.170% in the same period); constant service cuts and punctuality/running times deteriorating at a faster (!) rate than ever.
As regards lobbyists; The Media are absolutely besotted by Rail. The "oh so impartial" BBC are the worst of the lot, forever playing the "poor, long suffering rail commuter" card whilst blaming buses for all urban pollution - despite the fact that 9 out of the top 10 most polluted road sections in GM have 4 or less buses an hour on them! Richard Westcott made it perfectly clear that he thinks Tax-payers should continue to pay more than 36% of the cost of each ticket.
I suspect there is someone on this forum who will disagree, but don't think the "Road" lobby has any time for bus users. They spread lies about TIF in 2008 and their members are constantly, illegally delaying the progress of buses and removing the confidence of physically disabled people to use buses.

The premium payments go to the Government.

SD.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(16/08/2017 19:58)Dentonian Wrote:  GM Bus users had a 7.5% increase with much less than 2 weeks notice back in April. A bit of an outcry about First's rises in the MEN (but not about Stagecoach's!), not a dicky bird from local BBC/Granada or lobbyists or Unite.

All GM bus operators or just two of the big ones? MCT fares in Manchester remain very low!

Remember all regulated train fares are increasing on the same day in January, so it affects all rail users in the region not just those using certain operators in one part of the region. Wouldn't it get a bit repetitive if they did news stories for large fare rises by every bus operator in the region?

[Gordon V]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/further-two-...ail-north/