First Manchester

[jonesy3001]

RE: First Manchester
Have all the buses that first were supposed to transfer to go north west gone to QS?

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester
I think this with Vantage is quite strange maybe someone who works for TfGM can enlighten us to what the rules are.

Is it that if a depot is sold separately, the Vantage contract cannot transfer and has to be re-tendered, or is it that if FirstGroup buses is sold as one bulk lot then its not in breach and it continues unchanged to whoever the new owner is as continuation of business? So as if Winston says Mr Souter forms Souter holdings and buys all FirstGroup bus operations out then that company would have the franchise under existing conditions? or would that also be a breach on contract and therefore need rescinding?

Of course another option could be placing it under the Metrolink operation and them operating it from one of there sites or another temporary site under TfGM control in a caretaker role until a new tender was validated?

[Bevan Price]

RE: First Manchester
I don't know the terms of the Busway (Vantage) contract. But commonly, if a business is sold in its entirety, the purchaser usually takes over all the contracts & obligations. (Excluding special cases like liquidation or administration.)

[Neukit]

RE: First Manchester

(02/06/2019 20:42)Bevan Price Wrote:  I don't know the terms of the Busway (Vantage) contract. But commonly, if a business is sold in its entirety, the purchaser usually takes over all the contracts & obligations. (Excluding special cases like liquidation or administration.)

I assume that there is some TfGM contracted work contained within the Queens Road depot work, that Go Ahead have acquired from First?

[acocker96]

RE: First Manchester
You wouldn’t be able to get a copy of the contract to verify the details unfortunately. While you could put a freedom of information request into TfGM to ask for it, they would turn it down to due to commercial sensitivity.

It’s what we’d do in the NHS if we get asked for copies of contracts.

[Y458 KNF]

RE: First Manchester
I wonder if First are waiting until all the TfGM Vantage contracts are close to ending before making a decision on selling Bolton?

[djb]

RE: First Manchester

(02/06/2019 19:04)gilesbus1 Wrote:  I think this with Vantage is quite strange maybe someone who works for TfGM can enlighten us to what the rules are.

Is it that if a depot is sold separately, the Vantage contract cannot transfer and has to be re-tendered, or is it that if FirstGroup buses is sold as one bulk lot then its not in breach and it continues unchanged to whoever the new owner is as continuation of business? So as if Winston says Mr Souter forms Souter holdings and buys all FirstGroup bus operations out then that company would have the franchise under existing conditions? or would that also be a breach on contract and therefore need rescinding?

Of course another option could be placing it under the Metrolink operation and them operating it from one of there sites or another temporary site under TfGM control in a caretaker role until a new tender was validated?

I suspect it may be along the lines that, if first sold Bolton, “first Manchester” still exists in the form of the final depot, and there may be a stipulation that the contract cannot be subcontracted or sold on.. It may be a different story if oldham is sold first.

[Raawwwrrr!]

RE: First Manchester

(02/06/2019 22:56)Neukit Wrote:  I assume that there is some TfGM contracted work contained within the Queens Road depot work, that Go Ahead have acquired from First?

The Metroshuttle contract

[gilesbus1]

RE: First Manchester

(03/06/2019 19:37)darylyates17 Wrote:  I wonder if First are waiting until all the TfGM Vantage contracts are close to ending before making a decision on selling Bolton?

I very much doubt that as the current Vantage contract runs for nearly a further 7 years, the original Vantage contract was for 10 years from when it started on 4th April 2016, we are now only 3 years in.

The sticking point with Bolton is obviously Vantage, as that is there only really high profile route. There is no doub't that the 582 and 471 make good returns and maybe also the 163, but the 36 and 37 and also 8 are no longer what they were in terms of financial return due to Stagecoach competition and also improved rail services on the Bolton line will cut profit on there further. I remember when the 36 was always well loaded now you see only small numbers on them, one often wonders why the ADL Enviro400's aren't taken off the 36 and 37 and switched to the 582 on which most journeys have standing loads but use saloons. Obviously now forthcoming Electric saloons for the 582 if they still come, means that the 582 is stuck with saloons for around a further 8 to 10 years from Christmas 2019.

As for services between Manchester and Bolton they need revising heavily with new routes and new timetables replacing services 36 and 37, in fact the 37 could be withdrawn altogether and replaced with a rerouted 12 Bolton to Walkden to Roe Green and then onwards to Swinton, Salford Precinct and Manchester via Worsley at a less often frequency replacing the facilities lost with the 12, 26, 34 and the current 37 as a service through Worsley and Roe Green wouldn't stand high frequencies.

[Winston]

RE: First Manchester

(01/06/2019 22:01)WhiteVanMan Wrote:  Plus the £245m from the sale of the American operations. So should have enough for both Arriva & First.

No, the sale of the America Operations was Stagecoach Plc, with proceeds going to them.

The ADL sale proceeds go to Brian Souter personally via Souter Investments.