Atlantic, Bolton

[djb]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(09/09/2022 10:21)knutstransport Wrote:  Unless there's another operator with a similar name, Elite (based in Sale) were running RRBs well east of the Pennines the other day.

There’s an elite in the Wakefield area.

[Mrboo]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(09/09/2022 10:20)knutstransport Wrote:  It's rare to see RRBs departing Knutsford to schedule. The operators I have seen running reasonable punctual RRBs include MP Travel, Howards, D&G Bus and APH. I think there was a Welsh coach hire company once as well. In the past I've seen Bullocks and Selwyns running punctual RRBs but it's been a while since I've seen either of them running one.

Now that APH have their airport work back, that perhaps loses an option. D&G aren't likely to have large vehicles spare except in the evenings or on Sundays.

Northern control seem to have the idea one Mid Cheshire RRB starting at Chester/Stockport/Manchester, running all stops towards the Knutsford area and then doing set-down only, with a further bus starting short in the Knutsford area. This doesn't reflect rail usage levels - at busy times you need at least 3 vehicles to replace one train on the Altrincham to Greenbank section, Knutsford passengers alone may fill a single RRB. And Northern only request RRBs if at least 2 consecutive services are cancelled.

The sensible approach would be (in order):
1. Arrange ticket acceptance with Metrolink for Altrincham to Manchester
2. Attempt to source at least 3 RRBs (more if only minibuses can be sourced)
3. If only one can be sourced initially get it running between the main stops on the Greenbank to Altrincham section (i.e. including Northwich, Knutsford and Hale). Obviously if the bus is coming from Chester, don't run it out-of-service to Greenbank, or if it's coming from Stockport don't run it out-of-service to Altrincham!
4. Then look at Chester to Greenbank (a less busy section)
5. Then look at Altrincham to Stockport (a busy section but if there's ticket acceptance with Metrolink, then there's an alternative)
6. Then look at ensuring the villages aren't left out.

Obviously, revise the approach depending on the time of day e.g. if schools will be finishing, or there's been special events on e.g. Chester Races, Old Trafford cricket etc.

Also vary depending on the reason. If only one bus is available and it's an infrastructure problem that'll take hours to resolve, keep a shuttle running between Greenbank and Altrincham.

When I used to do this route we had 1 coach start Chester and one Stockport and had to have someone on board each coach at set points you had to call to make sure no coach was going along that part of the route and had to walk to Mobberley to check if anyone was waiting for the train. not an easy route.

[knutstransport]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(12/09/2022 18:07)Mrboo Wrote:  When I used to do this route we had 1 coach start Chester and one Stockport and had to have someone on board each coach at set points you had to call to make sure no coach was going along that part of the route and had to walk to Mobberley to check if anyone was waiting for the train. not an easy route.

Passenger numbers are higher now. Pre-COVID Knutsford got over 500,000 journeys per annum, compared to 240,000 ten years earlier. Of course some people don't bother if the train is replaced by a bus. But when it's 2 X evening peak Manchester to Chester services cancelled, which are both booked to be 4 carriages, then it's a challenge to find suitable replacement road vehicles.

Limiting calls to Stockport, Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Lostock, Northwich, Greenbank and Chester means the replacement vehicle would spend almost all the time on A roads, plus picking up the majority of passengers. Then you could send a little bus to pick up at stops like Ashley and Mobberley.

The roads around Mobberley station could be fun if you had buses replacing trains around school starting/finishing times, as D&G send a 39 seater Enviro that way for a school service.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(12/09/2022 18:42)knutstransport Wrote:  Limiting calls to Stockport, Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Lostock, Northwich, Greenbank and Chester means the replacement vehicle would spend almost all the time on A roads, plus picking up the majority of passengers. Then you could send a little bus to pick up at stops like Ashley and Mobberley.

How big is your 'little bus'? When buses are on the Mid Cheshire, generally most people don't travel because of the vastly increased journey times. Doing an express bus would make sense in some ways but that also negatively effects people travelling the longer distances.

Using the night buses tonight as the example. Manchester Picc - Chester and Knutsford to Chester. The Knutsford - Chester bus works out to be 30 minutes ahead of the Manchester one and so is closer to the original train times while also offering a slightly faster journey for anyone who is travelling longer distance. Much better for passengers. It also means no matter where you get on, you will have a fair journey time. The buses in their current form also reflect the current journey flows.

In your example, someone boarding at Hale heading to Chester would have a 2h journey (as it would be on the little bus route) whereas someone from Stockport would be in Chester in 1h 30 (based off google maps and given it is night time with low traffic. People closer are having much larger journey times and so you're just robbing peter to pay paul. People who use other stations are put off just so you can have a fast bus. I don't think people heading Stockport to Plumley would agree that your system is the best. Or what about people wanting to go Knutsford to Plumley, Sorry, you have to wait 30 minutes for the minibus to turn up, in which point, the bus bus would have dropped you off and long gone. You're just salty because being in the centreish of the line, you have to go all stops and don't get a fast bus.


Reality is, it follows the journey flows. Generally, journeys are made between stations Chester - Knutsford or Northwich - Manchester (so people from Mouldsworth generally won't go further than Knutsford and Hale won't go much further south than Northwich sort of thing). Passengers from Stockport to Chester have alternative trains via Crewe, those passengers are covered. In the unlikely event that people are travelling much further (such as Chester - Plumley or Hale etc), they can get there quicker than if it was fast bus, slow bus but also not delay passengers as much. The best win for all would be 3 buses. 2 smaller buses doing as current and a coach doing slightly faster but that costs a lot of money, especially on emergency 'name your price' rate. It's also a complete waste given the low amount of people who use these buses anyway.

[knutstransport]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(12/09/2022 23:26)iMarkeh Wrote:  How big is your 'little bus'?
...
The best win for all would be 3 buses.

I never suggested 2 buses, including one little bus, is the right combination. You'll notice from an earlier post I said at least 3 RRBs if it's a last minute arrangement. If both the 15:02 and 16:02 Chester to Manchester services are cancelled then you have over 100 people to shift from Greenbank station alone. You don't need 3 RRBs calling at all stations. But I accept they might only be able to source one initially. That's why I suggested in the first instance get ticket acceptance on Metrolink and ensure Greenbank to Altrincham is covered. Obviously exactly what you do depends on what can be sourced. If the replacement bus is coming from Winsford, then maybe start it at Greenbank. If it's coming from the Wirral, then don't run it out-of-service to Greenbank.

Quote:but that costs a lot of money, especially on emergency 'name your price' rate. It's also a complete waste given the low amount of people who use these buses anyway.

On an emergency basis there can be many people who already have tickets. Anytime Returns from Northwich to Manchester are over £15 and there are a considerable number of peak time journeys from Northwich to Manchester. It's not like Rose Hill Marple to Piccadilly where every local fare is under the TfGM cap. Northern may not care if they lose £500 through issuing refunds, delay repay etc. or if they spend it on a RRB. However, long term the RRB might mean more people give Northern a second chance.

While COVID may have affected commuter flows, one thing that surprised me is a lot of people commute from Altrincham to Knutsford in the morning, probably over 200 excluding the school children, who then make up a significant number themselves. But there aren't all from Altrincham - they've arrived there from various places by bus and tram - Timperley, Sale, Didsbury, Wythenshawe etc.

Knutsford and Hale also have a lot of business travellers, who change to Avanti, XC, TfW etc. at Stockport. Running an express bus in the morning peak could save Northern hundreds in Delay Repay to business travellers alone, given 5 minutes extra can make the difference between £25 Delay Repay and £50 Delay Repay to just one person.

Quote:When buses are on the Mid Cheshire, generally most people don't travel because of the vastly increased journey times.
...
Using the night buses tonight as the example.
...
The buses in their current form also reflect the current journey flows.

Comparing scheduled late RRBs with unscheduled evening peak RRB is like comparing Avanti services with LNW services - two completely different markets, with different travelling patterns. The reason engineering works usually affects late Mon-Thurs and Sunday services is because most of the travellers at those times are leisure travellers who can postpone their trip to meet up with friends, go bowling etc. to a different day. You can't decide to return home from work on Thursday when it's Wednesday and you're already at work. Some people may decide to work late, or go to the pub if there's disruption which may clear later but if you take what happened yesterday Greenbank to Chester services were suspended from 14:30 until when the line was closed for the overnight engineering works. Waiting until later, doesn't prevent the passengers needing a RRB to get home.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton
I'm not even going to do a full response if you're going to put words into my mouth. You've taken 2 lines from completely different parts of my post, thrown them into a quote. Not even worth a discussion.

[knutstransport]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(13/09/2022 15:12)iMarkeh Wrote:  I'm not even going to do a full response if you're going to put words into my mouth.

The reason RRBs came up in this thread was due to Atlantic agreeing to provide replacement bus services when evening peak Manchester to Chester services were cancelled. As I said in an earlier post the plan needs to vary based on the demand at the time the RRBs are required.

iMarkeh Wrote:In your example, someone boarding at Hale heading to Chester would have a 2h journey"

You were putting words in to my mouth there, so a bit rich saying I did in response to you. You also contradicted yourself in the same post.

Quote:You've taken 2 lines from completely different parts of my post, thrown them into a quote.

I also took 3 lines from separate sections because the reasons I disagree with all 3 statements is the same. You were ignoring the differences between demand for emergency RRBs and scheduled RRBs. I didn't need to point that the same error 3 times did I?

[iMarkeh]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton

(13/09/2022 15:42)knutstransport Wrote:  The reason RRBs came up in this thread was due to Atlantic agreeing to provide replacement bus services when evening peak Manchester to Chester services were cancelled. As I said in an earlier post the plan needs to vary based on the demand at the time the RRBs are required.

(13/09/2022 15:42)knutstransport Wrote:  You were ignoring the differences between demand for emergency RRBs and scheduled RRBs. I didn't need to point that the same error 3 times did I?

No rail company does or would do this for emergency rail. Train operators go to somewhat pre prepared plans for each line. If line X goes down, we will request bus 1 to do this and bus 2 to do that. It's easier for the train company to request and easier for the rail replacement provider to action.
It's also then easier for staff on the ground if there is always a common plan as then it's something that can be relied upon. For the Mid Cheshire, everyone who works regularly at or around these stations and any operators and their drivers who are familiar with the line, will know the exact plan of action when a bus has been requested.
The current plan is easier too for drivers on the mid Cheshire as then you don't get arguments with passengers. Bus pulls up at a station, they know they are to pick up everyone who is waiting for that bus and all passengers get moving. None of this 'I stop at A, C, F, G, L, Z stations, anyone for other stops, wait here for another bus which may or may not turn up, I have no clue as it's not my firm'. Skip stop buses cause confusion for passengers and causes needless arguments too between passengers and drivers. Passengers try to negotiate stops en route 'you pass near Delamere (for example), why not stop' or 'can you drop me on the main road then instead' etc etc.

The best pattern for the Mid Cheshire, given the general passenger flows with an easy to action plan, is how it currently runs. Not best for you as you want a quicker journey home, but simpler for all to understand and easier to action for all involved.

[mikestone]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton
Enviro400 SK22BWA was on Crewe horse landing an hour ago for no apparent reason.

[NorthernCounties]

RE: Atlantic, Bolton
An Atlantic double decker has crashed into the bridge at Weston street 2 minutes from the depot.
Unsure of the registration.
Video posted on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1642272167...WDuG2&fs=e