Northern (Arriva Rail North)

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(03/12/2018 22:04)Y474 KNF Wrote:  That's been known for a while. At the moment however it's unknown what they will be - although my guess would be more Class 170s or the Class 185s which are due to go off lease

Indeed. It's in the franchise agreement and was known about before bids were submitted for the West Midlands franchise, which is possibly one reason why Abellio proposed replacing 170s in their West Midlands bid and probably why Porterbrook didn't insist the 170s and 172s come as one package, opposed to allowing 172s to continue to be leased while 170s can be returned.

[Brickmill]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(03/12/2018 09:29)knutstransport Wrote:  Even in urban areas there isn't always a bus duplicating the rail service and even where there is it can start later, finish earlier or not run on Sundays or take 3 times as long as a train.

Again regarding GM, there is virtually nowhere that has a rail service but not a bus service, even if you need to change buses and/or the bus takes a lot longer (at least on paper). Based on where I live, Commercial Sunday buses start a good 2 hours earlier than the sparse rail service - but this is irrelevant as the Strikes are on Saturday. I would still contend that where Rail scores a distinct (time) advantage over buses, it will invariably be in areas where the vast majority of families have cars and trains largely only serve Manchester city centre, rather than the nearest town/retail park. As such, the vast majority of Saturday workers would either not have a relevant rail service anyway, or can call upon parents/friends to give them lifts. I'm not even convinced there are that many Saturday workers in this category anyway; One of the main immediate consequences of De-regulation in GM was the drastic reduction of bus service levels on Saturday mornings/evenings ie. exactly when people needed to/from shop work. In Merseyside, it seems that Saturday service levels were already inferior to Mon-Fri off-peak anyway. And we all know that many shops have closed in recent years, thus reducing the number of shop workers. The remaining shopping centres (city centres apart) offer free or very cheap parking, thus reducing demand for public transport (for both staff and customers) even further.

[N271CKB]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Talks to avert more strikes have failed.....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-46452438

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Safety concerns on weekday Mid-Cheshire trains: https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news...k-station/

And a message to not bother trying to using the very limited replacement buses on Saturdays: https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news...y-useless/

[childwallblues]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
195103 and 195105 have been moved from Edge Hill to Allerton Depot.
Obviously running out of space with the arrival of 195109 and 195110.

[Brickmill]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)
Strictly speaking, and industry wide query, but apart from not being sure whether a new subject is relevant on this section, in practice it mainly involves Northern because of their ever worsening capacity issues and the nature of some of their routes.

Does anybody on this forum know about factors influencing modal choice, particularly where trains compete directly with commercial buses (even if only from two or three stations). In particular, price. From the new year, the fare* gap between Reddish and Manchester (particularly beyond Piccadilly) widens further, with bus/tram increasing to £6.60 off-peak (currently £6.30) and train/tram frozen at £4.10. Bearing in mind constant short-forming, will this further increase demand for trains especially on the single-unit "shoulder peak" trains eg. 0833 from Sheffield (0930 RDN) & 1549 from Piccadilly.

*Day Return

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(08/12/2018 21:58)Brickmill Wrote:  Strictly speaking, and industry wide query, but apart from not being sure whether a new subject is relevant on this section, in practice it mainly involves Northern because of their ever worsening capacity issues and the nature of some of their routes.

Does anybody on this forum know about factors influencing modal choice, particularly where trains compete directly with commercial buses (even if only from two or three stations). In particular, price. From the new year, the fare* gap between Reddish and Manchester (particularly beyond Piccadilly) widens further, with bus/tram increasing to £6.60 off-peak (currently £6.30) and train/tram frozen at £4.10. Bearing in mind constant short-forming, will this further increase demand for trains especially on the single-unit "shoulder peak" trains eg. 0833 from Sheffield (0930 RDN) & 1549 from Piccadilly.

*Day Return

The £4.10 off-peak ticket you mention is not valid before 09:30 or between 16:00 and 18:30 on weekdays, so there's very few busy services where the cheaper off-peak ticket is valid.

Also the £4.10 rail ticket from Reddish to Manchester is only valid on Metrolink in the city centre zone, the £6.60 ticket is valid on the entire Metrolink network. Therefore, you could just as easily ask why Altrincham to Reddish going out at 10am and back at 6pm is only £6.60 using bus and tram when it's £9.10 using rail, considering buses and trams are a lot more frequent.

[Brickmill]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(09/12/2018 09:42)knutstransport Wrote:  The £4.10 off-peak ticket you mention is not valid before 09:30 or between 16:00 and 18:30 on weekdays, so there's very few busy services where the cheaper off-peak ticket is valid.

Also the £4.10 rail ticket from Reddish to Manchester is only valid on Metrolink in the city centre zone, the £6.60 ticket is valid on the entire Metrolink network. Therefore, you could just as easily ask why Altrincham to Reddish going out at 10am and back at 6pm is only £6.60 using bus and tram when it's £9.10 using rail, considering buses and trams are a lot more frequent.

Are you a politician by any chance?
1. You dismiss my basic question (ignoring the specific examples) by diminishing the problem.
2. You wrongly assume how I am making my calculations.
3. Your alternative assumption is incorrect!

To concentrate on the actual price:
The £6.60 is based on £4.80 Stagecoach DaySaver plus £1.80 Zone 1 Metrolink return (from 13/1/19). Altrincham is not in Zone 1 (lol)
Whilst I doubt there is much latent demand to travel from Reddish to Altrincham - dispersal of health services notwithstanding - I presume you are referring to the SystemOne AnyBus & Tram off-peak, which is currently £7 (not £6.60). However, an increase in commercial fares normally sparks an increase in SystemOne fares, so I would expect the £7 to increase in the New Year as well. By how much, would depend on whether First in particular also increase fares and what the overall change in Off-peak Rail fares. I assume the RDN freeze is the exception to the rule.

[knutstransport]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(09/12/2018 17:08)Brickmill Wrote:  Are you a politician by any chance?
1. You dismiss my basic question (ignoring the specific examples) by diminishing the problem.
2. You wrongly assume how I am making my calculations.
3. Your alternative assumption is incorrect!

To concentrate on the actual price:
The £6.60 is based on £4.80 Stagecoach DaySaver plus £1.80 Zone 1 Metrolink return (from 13/1/19). Altrincham is not in Zone 1 (lol)
Whilst I doubt there is much latent demand to travel from Reddish to Altrincham - dispersal of health services notwithstanding - I presume you are referring to the SystemOne AnyBus & Tram off-peak, which is currently £7 (not £6.60). However, an increase in commercial fares normally sparks an increase in SystemOne fares, so I would expect the £7 to increase in the New Year as well. By how much, would depend on whether First in particular also increase fares and what the overall change in Off-peak Rail fares. I assume the RDN freeze is the exception to the rule.

You didn't specify what ticket you were referring to. As you mentioned a bus/tram ticket I presumed you meant the System One ticket. As Stagecoach buses alone can get you from Reddish to Manchester without needing to board a single tram no-one except you knew what illogical flawed argument you were trying to make. Not everyone with a CTLZ ticket boards a tram on arrival at Piccadilly, just like not everyone with a Stagecoach DaySaver travels on 2 different services.

Northern Off-Peak Day Return fares are generally increasing by 10p, 20p or 30p.

[Brickmill]

RE: Northern (Arriva Rail North)

(09/12/2018 20:33)knutstransport Wrote:  You didn't specify what ticket you were referring to. As you mentioned a bus/tram ticket I presumed you meant the System One ticket. As Stagecoach buses alone can get you from Reddish to Manchester without needing to board a single tram no-one except you knew what illogical flawed argument you were trying to make. Not everyone with a CTLZ ticket boards a tram on arrival at Piccadilly, just like not everyone with a Stagecoach DaySaver travels on 2 different services.

Northern Off-Peak Day Return fares are generally increasing by 10p, 20p or 30p.

There is no "illogical, flawed" argument - in fact, I wasn't making an "argument" at all. I was asking if anyone knew to what extent price factors affected modal choice where there is direct competition. You clearly don't know, so I don''t understand why you bothered commenting at all.

A Stagecoach DaySaver goes up from £4.50 to £4.80 whilst an off-peak Day Return is frozen at £4.10. The fact that "not everyone" continues across Manchester by tram (or another train for that matter) is irrelevant. In either scenario the price gap between bus and train widens.